Glenn Greenwald Agrees With Me

May 19, 2010 in LGBT Rights, Politics

Suck it, all of you liberal-hater Wordsmokers.

Okay, yeah. Glenn says it much more succinctly and better than I did (natch). But what he says always has been and is my point. One’s sexuality is part of one’s identity. The closet is a denial of that identity.

And if one’s identity–whether that be hetero- or homosexual–is nothing to be ashamed of, then why shouldn’t heterosexuality (Samuel Alito’s wife sat prominently in the front row during his Senate confirmation hearing) and homosexuality be treated equally when it comes to Supreme Court nominee hearings?

I wouldn’t be surprised if “closetedness” became a recognized mental illness at some point in the next several decades.

P.S. I don’t really think everyone who disagreed with me is a “liberal-hater.” Not all of you were liberal, and only some of you were haters. Some of you meant well. But most of you were–and remain–wrong.


  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    Is this your “satire” again?

    I’m all for you using WS as a place to generate discussion – not too happy about “nyah, nyah look who shares the same opinion as mine” bullshit. I’m guessing that I could throw a rock and hit 20 big name wingnuts that would make you vomit on sight who would share your opinion too.

    And really

    I wouldn’t be surprised if “closetedness” became a recognized mental illness at some point in the next several decades.

    Yes, indeed. Roll on with your Sexual McCarthyism. You’ll be like a pig in shit, my friend.

    And for the record – I don’t give a fuck who anyone fucks, or wants to fuck, as long as it’s legal and consensual and if softly-lit, on high definition video.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    laywergay

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    lawyergay

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    lawyergays future

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    pin triangle

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    VWS: Seriously? Haven’t we been through this before? I’m already exhausted.

    This Kagan confirmation process has a lot to do with my life, ya dig, Scotsman? And I don’t think I’m out of line by calling other Wordsmokers out on their bull. Isn’t this all in good fun?

    Who got pissy and complained to you?

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    Oh yes, we’ve been through this before. It’s cyclical with you. Intellectual menstruation, with the lining of the womb replaced with your own, personal opinion with WS as the tampon, and now there’s blood everywhere and you’re Courtney Love throwing it into the audience. And then you step over the line and I have to come on and drag you off stage and construct a really tortured analogy in public which people have probably stopped reading now.

    This Kagan confirmation process has got fuck-all to do with your life. It just butts nicely against your own opinions about closetedness, and you’re fucking loving it. And this post of yours is odious, self-serving and not in the spirit of “discussion” whatsoever.

    And yes, “I dig”, Fonzie. I dig that yet another prurient, ugly part of American politics rears its bitter head again. The part where supposedly “adult” adults indulge in another giggly-pointy-oh-look-at-him/her-Iwonderwhotheyliketofuckheeheehee. You’re closer to the beating heart of FoxNews than you’d ever care to admit. But it’s “All in good fun”, isn’t it? It’s like you just stepped off the boat with the rest of the Puritans yesterday.

    And never, ever fucking “Scotsman” me like that. I know what you were saying, and I didn’t appreciate it, ya dig? I know for a fact that you’re a genuinely nice guy offline, but – man – you can certainly come across as a cunt on here when someone has the temerity to disagree with your view.

    A view I decided – quite obviously – to stay out of. That was until you crossed the line. Again.

    Maybe you should be re-blogging your “view” at RedState. Even Salon seems a bit too progressive for you at this point.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    Also. This post needs more links.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    VWS: First of all, I am going to “Scotsman” you silly until you’re pleading for me to stop…and then I’m going to “Scotsman” you a couple more times. (Just kidding. I wouldn’t “Scotsman” anyone without his prior written consent. That’s illegal in the colonies.)

    Second of all: Really? Why are we doing this again?! Is what I’ve said so unpardonably awful and hateful that I must be the recipient of hideous Godwin’s Law-inducing pictures? Honestly. I’m not trying to be some gloating dick about all this stuff. I’m just trying to make my point–a point that my very own MOTHER doesn’t necessarily agree with. And if you don’t believe that, then just read my last comment on the “Our Fierce Advocate Strikes Again” thread.

    I’m not an all-knowing god or judge or super-sapient creature. I’m just me: a gay man who came out when he was 19 (in 1991) and has been trying to reconcile his heterosexuality-drenched childhood with his own essential gayness for the subsequent 19 years (yes, I’m 38).

    I have maybe reacted to those first 19 years of supposed straightness with a ferocity in those latter 19 years of open gayness that some find unseemly and weird and disturbing. Sometimes I find it unseemly and weird and disturbing that I am this out. You don’t give up that childhood indoctrination easily.

    Just…give me a break. I’m doing the best I can with what I know what to do, which is write about what I went through and what I feel and what I believe is right.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/rosie-cheeks/ Rosie Cheeks

    wait. who farted? because something stinks.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/forwardmotion/ forwardmotion

    Lawyergay: I’m your age, came out at about the same time, and I get you on this. I really do. But you can’t expect other people to get this. Is this fair? Does it feel great? No and no. But I think it is how it is.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/ Latterday Lenin

    Your first post was haranguing.

    Your second post was baiting.

    At this point, it’s just tiresome, transparent, and kind of sad.

    I stopped reading at “By Lawyergay”.

    C-

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    ForwardM: What’s not fair? I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    LDL: I truly don’t understand where we parted ways on all of this. You and I are a couple of homos, yes? So what’s keeping us from being at least civil with each other? I don’t dislike you the way you seem to dislike me.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/little-trumpet/ Little Trumpet

    I hate to keep popping up in these threads, because I’m not convinced the exchange is salutary at this point. But, Lawyergay, I think everyone here has the potential of sympathizing with your strong feelings about this and the personal misery you suffer because of the spectacle of the closet and your formative experiences there. However, people do not actually get to your gooey center because your hard candy shell does not always taste sweet and sometimes has words on it like “you are wrong” and “did you read my post” and “I suspect this is coming from an unarticulated tribal feminism” and “nya nya boo boo.” A couple of these threads have devolved into a litany of people trying to explain what about your tone struck them the wrong way, and they may not all be “wrong.”

    I did some bad things with metaphor mixing and whatnot there, but I’m really trying to say something genuine. I will give myself a D+ but hope the thesis got through somehow.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/ Latterday Lenin

    Yes, but I’m beginning to contemplate going back into the closet if it means disassociating myself from bullshitters like you. You know exactly what you’re doing. You know exactly why people don’t like this. You know exactly why this is tiresome. You aren’t fooling anyone! This ultimately content-less post is a thinly-veiled attempt at starting up more attention for yourself in your manic loneliness! Stop it! WE GET IT! At least come up with some interesting, new thing to talk about! Spouting off the same opinion over three separate posts throughout the course of a week IS FUCKING BORING! YOU ARE BORING! I know you’re a smart person! Come up with something new, or go bore someone else!

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/senorwences/ Senor Wences

    I have no clue who Glenn Greenwald is. Is he important? He has an extra “n” in name, I know that much.

    What do you think, Death Goat?

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/forwardmotion/ forwardmotion

    Senor wences: Your video clips sustain and refresh my spirit.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    Little T: Terrible but really ambitious metaphor-mixing. No apologies needed (or accepted).

    I think I got your thesis. You don’t like my tone and think I’m an kind of an unsympathetic asshole because of it.

    I’ve found that people who complain about “tone” are often more pissed-off about the substance of what’s being said than the “tone.” Is it possible that you were wrong?

    Could that irrational tone-policeman be you?

  • http://wordsmoker.com/ Latterday Lenin

    @ LG

    WRONG. It’s the TONE we’re talking about. Believe it or not, we are intelligent enough to know the difference.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/rosie-cheeks/ Rosie Cheeks

    Thank God, Death Goat. The voice of reason. Tell us, tell us….we beseech thee.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    LDL: That’s enough.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/ Latterday Lenin

    You really hate it when someone calls you on your bluff, don’tcha!

    If you don’t leave this blog, I will.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/pinekatz/ Pinekatz

    LG: I’m going to skip the obligatory segueway of nice conversation.

    Yeah. Let’s go there. Middle-age female intellectual never marries. She has short hair. 190,000 WORDS of why THE LESBIAN should come out of the closet.

    Just STOP IT. Don’t you see how much worse this is? This thought is the SAME as anyone else who gathers the Village to carry torches and run after someone.

    Leave her the fuck alone. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Not yours, not mine, not anywone’s.

    Let her just ascend to her appointment. If you think about it, LG, you are dangerously close to being one of those guys who whips up anger based on someone’s sexual orientation.

    Oh wait. That IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Please, stop.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/pinekatz/ Pinekatz

    And that is some awesome goat.

    The thing is, he didn’t put that mask on. Someone else did.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/ Latterday Lenin

    I’m not going to sit by and watch you insult my friends any longer. I’m fucking tired of it, and I’m fucking tired of you. If playing on Wordsmoker means I have to put up with a bitter old queen who likes to bully people around, I’m out. I’ve had it with your intellectual dishonesty. I’ve had it with your lack of self-awareness. I’ve had it with your nasty attitude and your tiresome WASPish bullying. Take it somewhere else, or I will. I respect my friends here enough that I won’t stand by and watch you fuck with them any longer.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/rosie-cheeks/ Rosie Cheeks
  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/little-trumpet/ Little Trumpet

    Lawyergay: Are you serious, dude? I’m kind of getting tired of the veiled accusations that I’m a bigot. I challenge you to find any actual indications anywhere that I don’t think people who have relationships with other people should have the same rights as anyone else, or that I think homosexuality is gross or problematic or whatever. I’m seriously down with the cause, man, and you’re turning your claws on your friends. That’s the tone issue.
    Unless you were being ironic, like “this is how I would come back if you were right about my tone problems, but we’re both too self-aware to take this dance at face value.”

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/rosaluxembourgeoise/ Rosa Luxembourgeoise

    Immanuel Kant *AND* Maimonides totally vindicated me recently on a little theory that I was working on independently, and boy, I was like “SUCK ON IT, BETCHES!” to all the skeptics and haters, “YOU TREAT PEOPLE LIKE AN END, MOTHERFUCKERS, NEVER ONLY AS A MEANS, YOU STUPID SHITHEADS, HAHAHAHAHA!”

    That was great when that happened. The fucking shitheads still don’t get it. Idiots.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/curly-q-tips-2/ Curly Q Tips

    “LDL: That’s enough.”

    No, Lawyergay, this is enough. A post simply to crow that you feel somehow vindicated by a third party on a completely different site? Look, there are real problems in the world, tweaking the good Wordsmokers in order to fill your attention sponge isn’t helping to solve any of them.

    Get some fresh air, go spend some time volunteering with the less fortunate, give your fuse a rest so that it can grow a wee bit longer… use your intellect and charm for good. You’d be amazed at how it will change the world.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/sarahheartburn/ SarahHeartburn

    If you really feel so strongly about this, why post it under a pseudonym?

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/belltolls/ Belltolls

    Just glad the choice isn’t between Rosa and The Death Goat…that would have broken my heart.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/militantrubberducky/ MilitantRubberDucky

    @Wences: We don’t need no stinkin’ sheepdogs!

    @LG: As someone who gets told to go fuck herself by the rude, unappreciative public on an almost daily basis, I can honestly say I don’t give a fuck about tone. However, some people do, and one needs to consider how their message is going to be received, not just on content, but delivery. Given the chosen medium, tone/attitude/satire/jokes are that much harder to convey/infer due to the lack of audio or what have you. I don’t care if you’re a huge-raging-veiny-dick-that-curves-upward to me, but others do, and I think if you evaluate how you’re speaking to people, you’ll find yourself in a lot less hot water. Also, I think you’re smart enough to know the difference between someone being upset with tone, and someone being upset with your views. Now if you’ll excuse me, I must go lie down.

    @LDL: I think it’s petty to not be able to work out your differences as civil, mature adults, but that’s your right.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/helmangiraffe/ helmangiraffe

    “I’ve found that people who complain about ‘tone’ are often more pissed-off about the substance of what’s being said than the ‘tone.’ Is it possible that you were wrong?”

    This is astonishing. Just astonishing. “I’ve found”? “Is it possible you were wrong”? I used to think that you were just tone deaf. Now I understand that you are simply so single-minded in your devotion to what you believe to be your own excellence that you pretty much have lost the ability to read actual words that people write to you.

    Also, Kagan is straight.

    MRD: You’re kidding, right?

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/irishbreakfast/ irishbreakfast

    Lawergay: I’m new here. I generally avoid the ad-hominem but I feel that your self-serving crowing and preening demands a response. This piece–your tone, your argument, your stated defenses and justifications– is the online equivalent of a 5 year old’s tantrum when someone disagrees with him. I disagree with you, and I think that you are a nasty piece of work. If honing this online persona is your aim I suggest that in your next post your regale us with your superior knowledge of the Napoleanic Complex.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    I’m starting to think LG = AD.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/unfun/ Unfun

    OMG. I’ve been waiting for Virus to weigh in on this for a while now. I just orgasmed.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/unfun/ Unfun

    “But most of you were–and remain–wrong.”

    You call yourself a lawyer? Really? Lawyers are supposed to persuade. You suck at it.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    Unfun: He’s totally the guy who shows up in court and when the judge rules against him proceeds to get in an argument with the judge. Because if he rules against him, it’s obviously because the judge is wrong. Not because maybe he failed to make a persuasive argument. Or, God forbid, HE is wrong.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    And speaking of decorum, or lack thereof, this is what happens when you antagonize a judge in my neck of the woods.

    The first link tells the story. The second link takes you to the relevant transcript. Interesting discussion on the importance of proper tone and the bounds of acceptable behavior, albeit in a court of law, not on a blog. But still, the point is sound.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/06/21/a-few-penalties-short-of-getting-banned-from-court/

    http://abovethelaw.com/2007/05/atl-practice-pointers-dont-insult-the-judge-in-open-court/

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/katekate/ katekate is squared

    Am I supposed to know or care who Glenn Greenwald is? Because on both counts, I don’t. You’re not really impressing anyone here, LG. You’re digging yourself into a ridiculous hole and I’ll be happy to be the first one to throw in a handful of dirt.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/militantrubberducky/ MilitantRubberDucky

    @Helman: What am I supposed to be kidding about? The fact that LG needs to reevaluate the way he speaks to people if he doesn’t want to be deemed a pretentious dick, or the fact that I think LdL can be a bit more mature than to call for an embargo on all things LawyerGay like he’s fucking Fidel Castro? Did you see ‘LOL j/k my bff Jill ” after my post? Then no, I’m not kidding.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/baroness/ Baroness

    Greenwald is pretty often great (if a bit wordy). Aside from the questions about sexuality, it’s worth noting he is also strongly opposed to Kagan’s nomination, and has spent the past few weeks saying so, everywhere.

    The Case Against Elena Kagan

  • http://wordsmoker.com/ Latterday Lenin

    @ Militant

    I think you misunderstood my reasoning.

    I saw this as a situation where someone was clearly begging for attention and using some rather hateful tactics to go about getting it. Lawyergay himself said that if we didn’t like his tone, we should stop reading him, no? It’s not as though I imposed an embargo on anyone–people seemed pretty happy to comply on their own accord. I didn’t think I had the kind of sway to “call for” anything, really. But I am happy to organize dissent against something I see as a detriment to this community. Somebody’s got to. And there’s no better way to stop attention-seeking behavior than to stop giving it.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    LDL: I want you to know that I admire what you’re doing and what you’ve done, which is defend your friends from what you perceive as attacks on them. That kind of loyalty is rare.

    The reason I’m writing is because I think you perceive me as an enemy, when I’m in fact your ally.

    The posts that I’ve written here, particularly on the Kagan nomination, have been written from a good-hearted place based on my experience as a gay man who has worked to further the cause of equal rights for LGBT and gender non-conforming citizens for all the years he has been out.

    I certainly hope that when Kagan inevitably rules on the rights that affect you and me and all of our friends and families, she will come down on the side of our increasingly right-wing Supreme Court that acknowledges that we’re entitled to exercise the same rights that straight men and women have enjoyed for decades. I’m not hopeful about that, and I think Obama could have done a lot better than Kagan, but I’m going to keep my fingers crossed.

    You’ve gotten it wrong in all of our debates here, and I chalk that up to your youth and ferocious loyalty. Ultimately we may end up agreeing or disagreeing about that more meaningfully as you have time and years to reflect on what you and I have said here. But that’s of no moment.

    Where I think you get it tragically wrong, little brother, is where you attack me personally, histrionically threaten to go back into the closet because of my writing, and rail at me for saying things that I think you would acknowledge as true or at least worthy of real argument if I weren’t who you think I am.

    I may have given you a certain impression in our past dealings on Gawker and Facebook that has stuck with you. But I’m just me and what I write. I’m a citizen of this country just like you, and I would really appreciate it if you could take me at face value. We used to be friends.

    I’m writing this because I want you to know that your toxic clubbishness is slowly but surely reducing Wordsmoker to nothing more than a public forum for a discussion of your circle’s set of acceptable topics and unfunny inside jokes.

    And if you don’t believe me, then look at the list of usernames on the left side of this screen and ask yourself how many of those people are still around or commenting actively.

    Doesn’t Wordsmoker deserve to be more than this?

    Steve Dew
    stevedew77@gmail.com
    stevedew77 (Twitter)

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    @Lawyergay: You sir, have just went fucking insane. I hate to shatter your bizarro fucking world-view here, but a lot of people have fucked off from here because of your lapses into what is now passing for trolling. I get complaints about you – I’ve never had a complaint about Latterday Lenin. Not. Fucking. One.

    This is the third time it’s came to this. You’ve got until Monday to get your copy off of here, because I’m killing you and deleting every single one of your posts. You’ve become a cancer in here.

    When you’re gone, get a fucking grip on yourself. Get into therapy – anything. But never, ever return to Wordsmoker.

    And yes – your death will be public, and Wordsmoker a better place for it.

    Monday. Do it. Fuck off. Get better. Bye.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    And the fact that you publish your personal contact details on here? What are you trying to do? Start an insurrection?

    I’m honestly worried about your state of mind. Again – get help.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/katiechasm/ KATIECHASM

    Lawyergay: For what it’s worth (not much), I really enjoy your posts and am currently saving a couple of them before they get deleted.

    Not sure why everyone is ganging up on you, you’ve hardly said anything homophobic. Apparently disagreeing with popular opinion and posting your name after someone asks you to are signs of mental illness? I guess people are still angry about “Your Poem or Short Story Sucks” or whatever.

    In reply to this post, though, I think who you date should be public knowledge, but stating orientation shouldn’t be required. One being public by nature and the other being private.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    Katie: Thanks. I appreciate that a lot.

    VWS: I’m glad that you’re planning on deleting all of my posts and comments here. It’s becoming rather embarrassing for me to be associated with you and this site.

    And I put my name and everything else out there because SarahHeartburn made a good point. I’m not ashamed of saying any of the things I’ve said on this or any other thread or post that I’ve participated in here.

    Why would it be an “insurrection” to be associated with what one says on Wordsmoker?

    This is a very sad way to end all of our interactions together.

    So Monday, then? Don’t wait. Do it now.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    @Lawyergay: No, no – Monday it is. I want to savour the moment all through Saturday night, Sunday morning. Sunday afternoon I might just toy with the clicky button that kills you, just for shit’s and gigglez.

    Shame that embarrassment you feel so much about Wordsmoker led you to publish your real name and contact details, eh?

    Again. Get help.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lawyergay/ lawyergay

    Jesus H. Christ, Virus, I published my real name and contact info BECAUSE I am not ashamed about anything I’ve written here. SarahHeartburn’s point was well-taken. I am proud to be associated with my writing here, because I think it’s been good.

    I’m embarrassed to be associated with Wordsmoker when the threads devolve into hateful and personal attacks. Your attack just now makes Wordsmoker that much more unappealing to me.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    AND THE RETCON BOAT SAILS INTO THE SUNSET.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/ Latterday Lenin

    Right. My clubbishness.

    For the record, I had no problem at all with your stance on the issue you were discussing. I didn’t agree with it, but I’m not the kind of person who would want you gone because you posted an opinion different from my own.

    What I had a problem with was your condescending tone and your nasty little comments about things like “woman tribalism”. This isn’t the place for that kind of talk.

    And when you repeatedly and dishonestly claimed that you had “no idea” what we were talking about, claiming that while we were talking about your tone we really meant to say that we disagreed with your stance on the issue, and then persisted with the nasty tone, I got pissed.

    It seems like you’re still having a hard time believing that I and the rest of the Wordsmokers are intelligent enough to distinguish between tone and content.

    But we are. And I promise that’s what we were talking about.

    Take whatever stance you want. If you want to say that you believe that babies come from a magical rainbow trout who lives on Mars, feel free. But if we disagree, you don’t get to be nasty and condescending about it.

    I certainly hope I haven’t scared anyone away from Wordsmoker. If I have, they haven’t said a word about it to me.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/helmangiraffe/ helmangiraffe

    LL:Word.

    LG:

    “You’ve gotten it wrong in all of our debates here, and I chalk that up to your youth”

    “Where I think you get it tragically wrong, little brother”

    Who the fuck do you think you are?