On Socialism, Fascism, Fuckwits, And Shutting The Fuck Up

January 7, 2010 in Crazy Wingnut News, Rants

I’m annoyed. There are a lot of people out there in the world who have what could kindly be described as a tenuous grasp on the rudiments of political and economic philosophy. Like the dude to the left.

And, you know, his ilk.

Let’s take, as our first example the most common over-reaching criticism of Barack Obama, that he’s a dreaded socialist.

Calling Obama a socialist based on his some of his policies – specifically, I suppose, health care reform, or the various bailouts – is kind of like calling someone who has studied Kung Fu Chinese. Or Chuck Norris. It is entirely within the rights of the elected leader of this supposedly pluralist nation to employ some pluralist practices. To call Obama, or anyone who supports health care reform, a socialist based on a single aspect of his, and their, overall philosophic or political belief is to be dangerously, stupidly imprecise.

In my opinion, this abuse of semantics is what usually bungs up the political process in America; regardless, these fuckwits don’t seem to care too much about “socialism” or “free-market capitalism” or “irony” when they’re glutting themselves at Wal-Mart.

The irony here, of course, is that the tea-baggers have co-opted Glenn Beck’s inane insistence that Obama is a fascist, despite the actual definition of fascism, and despite the fact that they’re employing fascistic practices in an effort to stymie the democratic process, the very same process supposedly being threatened by the current administration. It raises the question; have these people ever picked up a dictionary, like, literally, ever? To quote Inigo Montoya,

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Because if Obama were a fascist, he’d send some black-ops, Snake Eyes-motherfuckers in there to slice off Beck’s double chin and feed it to him. You know, to set an example. And maybe to send the message that, “Hey, maybe you donkeys should lose a pound or two.”

But that hasn’t happened, and alas, it probably never will. Because that word doesn’t mean what they think it means. So, what we’re left with is a group of people who, through their calamitous and willful ignorance, are trying to push some aimless, amorphous agenda into the national debate, all with the ungrudging support of an entire network.

To my mind, all this just highlights the dangers of democracy: a bunch of people who literally do not know what the fuck they’re talking about, who nevertheless prattle on with impunity. And in the process, we all wind up beholden to a bunch of jerks who never learned the virtues of just shutting the fuck up.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/gerbilsinlove/ gerbilsinlove

    But, but…Obama is a Muslin! I saw the sign that said so!

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/nefariousnewt/ NefariousNewt

    It is entirely within the rights of the elected leader of this supposedly pluralist nation to employ some pluralist practices.

    Not only that, but it is required, by the Constitution. As I am fond of pointing out, the Preamble contains:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    Promotion of the general welfare requires the President to ensure that all Americans have the same rights, and receive the same treatment by their government. Inherently, this is social engineering at work; we came together as a nation to create an American society, and to do that, we had to ensure that any American would have the same rights and privileges as any other, and charged the government with ensuring this. What the right-wing sycophants fail to realize, is that their view is the antithesis of what the Founding Fathers intended.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/katekate/ katekate is squared

    Spot on. Try actually saying this to anyone who believes it, though, and it’s a horse of a different color.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/chillbearlatrigue/ Chillbear Latrigue

    I would say that I had concerns that Obama was a Socialist in liberal clothing. I do not equate the two. However, it was statements like this made in a Bill O’Reilly interview that concerned me:

    “If I am sitting pretty, and you’ve got a waitress who is making minimum wage plus tips, and I can afford it and she can’t — what’s the big deal for me to say, ‘I’m going to pay a little bit more.’ That is neighborliness.”

    While falling short of the mark of being a true “Socialist,” there is a push to take from the so-called rich and give to the poor. I wouldn’t mind so much, except for that I am a person who is firmly rooted in the middle class, who seems to be declared rich by some definitions. If I were married and my wife had my same income, we would be considered rich by Kerry’s and more recently Obama’s campaign standards.. As a single person, I am still considered rich because I have no dependents who are supported by my reasonable, but not bloated government income. I’m not complaining about paying more taxes than the waitress. I am complaining about paying more taxes so that the waitress, who may or may not be responsible for her position in life, can have the same things that I have earned.

    I am not disparaging servers. I have more than a few good friends who derive their incomes this way. When I came out of college, I made less than most of my friends who were waiters and waitresses and sacrificed to pay for my health insurance.

    I may not be back on until tonight, but I will answer the comments as they come.

    So, just to be clear, Obama is not a Socialist, but he is too liberal for my taste. I’m also supposed to say that I don’t like him and that I know that I’m too smart to actually feel this way. That’s an inside joke to LawyerGay. Neither of those things are true.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/nefariousnewt/ NefariousNewt

    @ChillbearLatrigue: I see your point, however, the caveat is in order to have this discussion properly, we have to define what “rich,” “poor,” and “middle class” are. The government unfortunately works on some outmoded sets of standards for wealth (AMT, anyone?). Theoretically, I might be considered “rich” because my wife and I make good money, however at the end of the month, my bank account is virtually empty. The income I make does not truly correlate to my place in society, because where I live determines how much of what I make I will eventually get to keep.

    If we are to maintain American society, and thus our standard of living, then each of us has to contribute to the common good. Certainly there are the self-serving layabouts who probably do not deserve to suckle at the teat of social services, but I’m thinking that for the most part, that’s not as big a problem as it is made out to be. It’s also more a function of education, upbringing, and opportunity; lacking any or all of those things makes getting through life more difficult. Some find it easier to remain on the dole, but they can be weeded out, especially if there are caps put on services that force them into programs to re-educate and re-train them so they can be productive.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/viruswithshoes/ VirusWithShoes

    @KateKate: ENOUGH OF YOUR INCESSANT EQUINE-RACISM!

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    I love this post. Needless to say I do not fully agree with Chillbear. I can see where he’s coming from in terms of not wanting to coddle lazy people but that’s a right-wing cop-out in my opinion.

    A civilized society is one where everyone has an equal, base-line level of access to certain fundamentals such as clean air, water, healthcare and education. If you agree with that statement then you have no choice but to agree with the inevitable fact that the provision of those fundamentals requires taxing those who can afford it somewhat more than those who cannot. It’s not rocket science. It’s called progressive taxation. If you’re rich and don’t want to pay those taxes, then move to a country where rich people don’t pay taxes. I assume that’s how it goes in Saudi Arabia. But that’s not how it works in a civilized country. By the same logic, if you are rich and you don’t want to go with the government’s base-line level (or “el cheapo” quality if you prefer) of said fundamentals, then by all means go out and pay for your own, higher-quality versions. That’s how it works in most other places and why civilized countries like Canada and the UK have both public AND private schools, healthcare providers, etc.

    Now, if you think we should live in a society where everyone should fend for themselves and the government shoud not be in the business of helping those who need help, that’s fine too. It’s just not civilized. It’s animalistic, brutal and inhuman. Or, Republican in other words. Glenn Beckian if you will.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    @bj: first, thanks for loving this post. when i got the email from virus saying he was posting it, i experienced a moment of panic; “what if what i wrote sounds like an asshole wrote it?”, i wondered. it made me need to poop.

    after pooping, and after school, and after i picked up the baby, and after i got home, i rustled up the nerve to check it out, and i feel, blessedly, un-asshole-y.

    also, chillbear, i agree, and i mean, like, explicitly, with the quoted obama statement. i consider it a most vile hypocrisy of many citizens of this nation that ideas like that which obama expressed is considered somehow fundamentally evil, yet it is exactly the sort of idea that, on any other day, christianity (whose fundamentals it has been alleged our nation is built upon) would champion.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/whyamihere/ WhyamIhere?

    @Newt: It says promote the general welfare, not provide it. Thomas Jefferson said, “If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy.”

    I do not mean that healthcare reform is a waste but I am extremely worried by the idea of a government run healthcare system. I am also troubled by the way this legislation has come about. There has been too much name calling by both sides and almost no discussion or cooperation.

    @BJjonston: Progressive taxation is an abomination. The reason for applying a percentage is so those who earn more pay more. Forcing them to also pay a higher percentage is unfair. Making more money than others is not illegal or immoral.

    @Virus: You killed my father. Prepare to die. (For those that do not recognize this: I am NOT referring to SPHINX.)

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    @whyamihere; jefferson also said the following:

    Liberty is to the collective body, what health is to every individual body. Without health no pleasure can be tasted by man; without liberty, no happiness can be enjoyed by society.

    also

    Health is worth more than learning.

    so, you know, i think jefferson might’ve been in line with some kind of reform.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/whyamihere/ WhyamIhere?

    @Therivercharley: Again, I am not opposed to reform just how this has progressed.

    And I put “@Virus” in my previous post when it should be @therivercharley. Sometimes I’m an idiot.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/chillbearlatrigue/ Chillbear Latrigue

    @Newt: I agree with most of what you say, so I’ll keep this short. I am not rich by any standard of the word in this country other than a political one. I live in a three-two attached dwelling and own a single car. It’s a jeep. I believe my trip to NY will be my only vacation this year unless I am drawn for the DC trip in May. Keep your fingers crossed. My savings are average. I do not object to paying taxes. What I object to is the way they are being squandered. I also resent the hidden tax that occurs when my wealth is devalued by the continuous printing of money that this government does not have.

    @BJon: You have great taste in music. I’m starting out with a compliment so I can say mean things after. Kidding. You establish a definition for a “civilized society” and then intimate that if the government is not somehow directly responsible for those base-line services, then the society fails to be civilized. I want healthcare reform. I just don’t want to pay a disproportionate share of taxes to a machine that has always shown itself to be inefficient and sometimes even corrupt to run it. If they want to apply some heavier regulation to insurance companies, reduce awards for malpractice suits, etc, then that is one thing. To try to run healthcare or a portion of healthcare, when almost every other enterprise that they have run is riddled with waste and inefficiency is another.

    @TRC: You don’t hear me espouse Christian tenets in this or any other forum, do you? My belief that the government is precisely the wrong clearing house to take in my money and dispense healthcare has absolutely nothing to do with good and evil. I work in government and alongside other government entities. The waste is shocking. Although his actions took place after he made that statement, I have seen Obama sit at the head of the most wasteful government in the history of a country that is known for its government waste. If you want to know why I don’t want to give my tax money for a government run healthcare plan, take a look at what they did – or have not done – with the money that we “gave” them for the stimulus package.

    http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/home.aspx

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    @chillbear: in my mind i was not really responding to you so much as i was responding to anything you specifically said so much as i was responding to what your comment reminded me of; in other words, not a fair response to you. sorry.

    but, just so i’m clear, you think obama’s government is the most wasteful gov’t in our nation’s history? or the government generally, recently, as in the last 9 years or so?

    @whyamihere: i agree with you, in general, that reform has not come about in an ideal manner. but much reform often does not. i guess this means i’m withholding judgement. there may come a day when i believe barack obama was the biggest waste of political emotion i ever spent. i am not, however, yet there.

    by the way, i do not mean to pry, but you don’t by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/chillbearlatrigue/ Chillbear Latrigue

    @TRC: Never apologize to me for this kind of stuff. I know. I guess I was trying to demonstrate that there is a more moderate, non-religious objection to these things. It’s fair, to say that Bush started us on this road, but I do see an acceleration in spending under this administration.

    I really want to jump in on the Princess Bride stuff, but I’m waiting for my opportunity. When it comes, I guess I’ll bash it’s head open with a rock.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/mediahohoho/ mediahohoho

    America has had progressive taxation for years, probably as long as we’ve had an IRS. We’ve had progressive taxation under Republican and Democratic administrations, under liberals and conservatives and middle of the road moderates like our current President. But we’ve never had progressive taxation under a jungle bunny before.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/chillbearlatrigue/ Chillbear Latrigue

    @MH3: I’m tired of restating my pride in our racial advancement, but dismay in the choices that he has made position. I admire the fuck out of that man. I just don’t like what he’s trying to do to our country. I do want to buy the Weatherproof jacket that is causing the whole stir. Can someone make their way to that ad and get me the style number?

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/mediahohoho/ mediahohoho

    @Chill: I’m not addressing you or your objections to Obama. I’m addressing the fat-mouth fuck in the photo above this post as well as all the hysterical ninnies who run around screaming “Socialist!” “Marxist!” “Maoist” without any understand of what those terms mean. I mean, I get it, Chill, that your objections to Obama’s administration rest firmly in your belief in the rapidly less credible by the minute Chicago school and not because you’re a racist. Beck, on the other hand, is a raving lunatic sheet wearing Klan wannabe.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/chillbearlatrigue/ Chillbear Latrigue

    @MedHoThree: Can you or can you not help me out with the jacket?

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/mama-penguino-2-2-2/ Mama Penguino

    @Chillbear: that will look good with your boots.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/mama-penguino-2-2-2/ Mama Penguino

    Also: President Obama wore a Weatherproof jacket, complete with a fleece bib and removable hood to visit the Great Wall of China on November 18.

    http://www.weatherproofco.com

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/whyamihere/ WhyamIhere?

    @TRC: I forgot to say good post. I take issue with how people at either extreme characterize one another. We need to stop the name calling.

    Five fingers, but I am no one to be trifled with. I may in fact be the Dread Pirate Roberts.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/mediahohoho/ mediahohoho

    @Chill: If that jacket can’t be found at the Burlington Coat Factory, I cannot help you find it.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/lipsticklibrarian/ LipstickLibrarian

    Hey, maybe you donkeys should lose a pound or two.

    Or “elephants.”

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/nefariousnewt/ NefariousNewt

    @WhyamIhere?: That is the problem: the government is not trying to “run health care,” another meme akin to “death panels.” The government is trying to ensure that a) insurance companies stop practices designed to increase their bottom line while denying people coverage and b) that all Americans have access to some form of health care coverage. Those are certainly ideas that promote the general welfare; they are the same ideas that brought about Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Welfare, and Unemployment Compensation. The government promotes the general welfare by ensuring that no American falls through the cracks, within reason; some will anyway, owing to circumstances. By providing such safety nets, the Federal government is making sure that people have a place to go when circumstances become dire, so that they do not resort to things that will lead to civil unrest.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/nefariousnewt/ NefariousNewt

    @ChillbearLatrigue: I hear you. As a taxpayer, the thing that irks me the most is the amount of Federal funding that gets poured down rabbit holes and into pork barrel projects, just so Congress and the President can get re-elected. I’m a firm believer in effective social programs, strong defense, solid infrastructure, and equal justice, and those areas should be the primary focus of our government.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/chillbearlatrigue/ Chillbear Latrigue

    @Newt: I can see that we’re close to common ground here, so I’m going to stay on this part of the argument. You mention a few of the programs that in some respects work well. my mother is on Medicare and my father just started receiving Social Security. I am grateful that they have those programs. Otherwise, I would be setting them on ice floes. Separately of course. They are divorced. However, while I think these programs work okey (Bringing back this spelling. Deal with it.), from the user standpoint, they are not run particularly well from the business standpoint. Because they are mandated to exist, the government has no choice, but to pump money into these programs whenever there is a shortfall.

    If it is a goal to deliver equal justice in this country, then we have failed. With the exception of healthcare, I can think of few things that separate the rich from the poor like legal protection. From a results only viewpoint, I would have guessed that we were trying to divide the country into two classes through our legal system.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    @chillbear: i recently wrote a paper that required me to do a little research on the prison industrial complex. the research really only substantiated for me in concrete terms something i already knew: this country hates poor, uneducated people. which is alarming, because there are a lot of poor, uneducated people in this country. and it’s all, like, uh, a vicious cycle or something. and it is. people are born poor, they get little education, less encouragement from their uneducated progenitors and either find religion or crime.

    i recognize that the above statement is vastly generalized; but i still think it’s true. there’s all kinds of middle ground, but problems are not defined from the middle ground.

    i’ve always been a bit of a liberal (well, not always, but whateve’s), but in the last few years i’ve found myself attracted to what would be considered by some to be almost extremist ideals. in the vein of socialism, i suppose. i’m of the belief that the current system of economic operations in this country (capitalism) is broken. not shocking to anyone, i’m sure. but i can’t help but think it was broken on purpose.

    i drifting dangerously close to “vast right-wing conspiracy” territory, here, i know.

    but there’s been a lot talk about this “free-market capitalism” thing, that does not exist, and how it’s the best thing for america. all this while i live in an area that has literally has 4 wal-mart’s within a 20 mile radius. if you expand that radius by 30 miles, we have 7 wal-marts. all of which were enticed to the area by massive tax incentives. and, just so we’re clear, i live in a state that, until the most recent elections was decidedly red (and that includes the stalwart blue-dogs).

    but, before i surround myself in rhetorical miasma, let me just say that i believe the rise of wal-mart is indicative of the gross contentedness of modern america. in other words, the american dream has turned from “i can make something of myself” to “i can get some cheap shit at the store.” if we make it easier to live beyond our means, there’s no longer any reason to strive for better.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    @Chillbear: I’m just now reading me some Chandler, so I saw what you did there with “okey.” I also liked your joke about setting your folks off on ice floes. Separately, of course in light of their divorce. I like your style, dude. But I do not agree with your POV in re politics.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/nefariousnewt/ NefariousNewt

    @therivercharley: The truly sad thing is, there would be fewer poor, uneducated people if we took poverty and education more seriously and actually tried to do something about them. Instead our tax dollars get poured into black holes.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    TRC: Your comment that “it’s all, like, uh, a vicious cycle or something. and it is. people are born poor, they get little education, less encouragement from their uneducated progenitors and either find religion or crime” was a succinct analysis of our problematic situation. It also reinforces my own belief that the single biggest engine of racism, de facto segregation, poverty and crime is the criminalization of drugs such as cocaine, marijuana and heroin.

    Follow me on this for a moment. About 50% of our nation’s prison population is behind bars for a drug-related crime, and while most of those crimes were probably also violent, a substantial proportion of our nation’s criminals got their first exposure to the nightmare that is the criminal justice system as a result of a non-violent drug offense i.e. possession.

    The fact that to this day smoking a joint, doing some coke or just getting high on heroin is enough to get a person thrown in jail along with the thieves, rapists and murderers is the reason why so many otherwise innocent young men go to jail where they really learn to be criminals. And we all know that the enforcement of the laws in general and drug laws in particular, is far from equal, such that the vast majority of the people arrested, charged and incarcerated for simple drug possession crimes are almost always poor, brown or black folks.

    John Stuart Mill called bullshit on this sorry-ass state of affairs in 1869. JSM said “with regard to the merely contingent, or, as it may be called, constructive injury which a person causes to society, by conduct which neither violates any specific duty to the public, nor occasions perceptible hurt to any assignable individual except himself; the inconvenience is one which society can afford to bear, for the sake of the greater good of human freedom.”

    It’s pathetic that we still haven’t figured that out or otherwise heeded Stuart Mill’s advice.

    On a separate but related note, funny how the drugs that are most illegal are the ones that go the farthest in making a miserable person feel good. Heroin has absolutely NO adverse physical side effects, aside from the addiction it induces, when taken responsibly and in moderation. But it’s illegal. Yet look at the millions of dollars spent on antidepressants and anti-anxiety drugs every year in this country. Life is hard and People. Take. Drugs. And the criminalization of the good/cheap drugs (i.e. Cannabis and Morphine) in tandem with the widespread encouragement and marketing of the expensive/sketchy pharmaceuticals (i.e. Effexor, Xanax, Cymbalta, Ritalin) is not a coincidence.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    @bj: don’t forget cocaine. or, as it’s known in my household, the Devil Cocaine. or Gross. formerly known as my favorite.

    i have my issues with heroin, though. mostly because of a nearly dead sister. and heroin. but that’s a family issue. not a legislative one.

    so, agreed.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    @TRC: Oh and BTW, the point you made about the woefully ignorant eventually either finding religion or crime nearly knocked me on my ass in its overwhelming acuity. So fucking true.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/mama-penguino-2-2-2/ Mama Penguino

    I have three words for those of you who enjoy narcotics: Chocolate Ice Cream. Little Penguino and I shared a huge bowl last night and I felt so good, so dreamy, and so within the law.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    @chill: Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line”! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha…

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/perverseus/ perverseus

    The problem with labeling someone a “fascist” or “socialist” is that the definitions of these labels are so very fluid. It’s like calling someone a “conservative.” Not every conservative quotes the Bible and fights against abortion rights. We all have a general idea of what a conservative is, but the devil is in the details.

    So, when making an argument as to whether or not President Obama is a fascist or a socialist — or neither — the debate has to be based around a definition of terms to which all parties agree, which hasn’t been done here. (Of course, this is not a structured debate.) That said, Obama’s attitude reflects the idea of establishing governmental control over business and labor, which seems to be more like fascism and less like socialism.

    @BJonston: Love your stuff, but progressive taxation is not the answer. The Fair Tax is the way to go, though you could probably convince me a flat tax would work, too. Either way, any tax system that penalizes you for being successful and prompts you to hire consultants to help avoid paying excessive taxes — all while giving a big chunk of the population a free pass — is flawed. If we were going to introduce a federal tax for the first time, which system do you think people would buy into, our current tangled web of legislative nonsense or a system that simply charged you a percentage on every purchase of goods and services with a rebate on taxes for essentials? No contest.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    @perversus: i would disagree with your assessment of obama; my interpretation of his attitude is that he would like to force american business to be responsible.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    @Perverseus: I will go so far as agreeing with you that the current system of taxation is a complete fucking mess and should be scrapped en toto and replaced with something new and much, MUCH, better. I might even go so far as agreeing with you that a flat tax is a good idea. But that’s only half the equation. The other half is “what” the government chooses to spend it’s tax revenues on, regardless of the manner in which it actually collects its taxes. At the end of the day, people in this country need to get used to the idea that the government providing basic levels of schooling and healthcare for those too poor to afford private schools and doctors is not a bad thing. It’s a sign of civilization. The federal government spends trillions of dollars “defending” the American people from “bad guys who want to harm us,” presumably because we, the American people, can’t afford to do it ourselves by means of local, privately funded militias or security firms. The way I see it, a million or two of the billions spent on stealth weaponry and spy satellites would go a long way toward providing schooling and healthcare to those of us too poor to afford them.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/whyamihere/ WhyamIhere?

    @TRC: Responsible to whom? The purpose of a business is to produce a profit for the owner.

    @Perverseus: I am with you on taxes.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    @why: if our societal ideology is centered around the premise of capitalism, then capitalism is responsible to society. business owners, as integral components of our society, are responsible to that society. if a businesses only responsibility is to itself, well, then, we’re talking about anarchy.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/whyamihere/ WhyamIhere?

    @TRC: Yes the business owner has a moral and, to an extent, legal obligation to be a responsible member of society. The business is a tool and its only purpose is to make a profit for the owner. I suspect we disagree on what responsibility people have with respect to society as a whole.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/therivercharley/ therivercharley

    i’m interested, though, in what your views are, in respect to the responsibility people have to society as a whole, whyamihere.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/chillbearlatrigue/ Chillbear Latrigue

    I have some catching up to do.

    @TRC: If you have seven Walmarts in a 30 mile radius, it is because Walmart has deemed that it would be beneficial to their company to have seven Walmarts in that area. If they end up being wrong, then that is too bad for Walmart. Seven Walmarts means that a lot of people are employed. People tend to focus on the employment practices of Walmart, but forget about the benefits and the reason that they’re successful. They deliver a standard of quality at a low price. People like the competitive pricing or they wouldn’t shop their. If you want to unionize Walmart employees, make them raise wages and increase benefits, then Walmart will increase their prices to maintain their 3.34% profit margin (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=WMT).

    People will stop shopping there, go to a non-unionized chain or purchase on line and then all of the liberated Walmart slaves can go home jobless or take on work at a non-unionized competitor where people will shop.

    Also, I meant to tell you that I liked this article.

    @BJon: I only have my experience as a narcotics officer from 97 to 99 and no direct narcotic experimentation.

    “Heroin has absolutely NO adverse physical side effects.”

    Well, then something else that heroin addicts are doing to themselves is turning them into wraith-like zombies. Other than that, heroin addicts develop abscesses, are more susceptible to cellulitis, infections of the heart lining and valves, liver disease and pulmonary complications.

    “The fact that to this day smoking a joint, doing some coke or just getting high on heroin is enough to get a person thrown in jail along with the thieves, rapists and murderers is the reason why so many otherwise innocent young men go to jail where they really learn to be criminals.”

    Jail is not prison. You are closely monitored in jail and it is generally for a much shorter period of time. Even still it is not that easy to spend any significant time in jail for the types of crimes that you describe.

    The idea that a lot of people are being locked up for smoking joints is ludicrous. In our state, if someone is caught in possession of under 20 grams they are usually issued a Notice To Appear and are required to appear in court. They generally get a fine and or community hours. Of course, if they take a swing at the cop or are driving fucked up, they may spend the night in jail. Very rarely are they in the same holding area as a murderer or rapist. If you are caught in possession of a harder drug like heroin or cocaine, you will be transported and then almost always get Pretrial Intervention for a first offense. It’s basically like going to driving school. People do not go to prison for using drugs, even if they are repeat offenders. To do time in a prison, you have to be a trafficker in narcotics (i.e. 25+ lbs of weed, 1+ oz. of coke or 4+ grams of smack). Selling to a cop will generally land you in prison as well, but then you aren’t just a user.

    The bottom line is that drug users aren’t learning prison-yard violence as a result of being locked up one time for simple possession charges.

    On the other hand, we lock up heroin and coke/crack addicts breaking into cars, committing muggings, etc. We rarely see that with other vices. I don’t often interview a subject who says that he was stealing to pay off a gambling debt, purchase the services of a prostitute or buy a bottle of rye.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    Chillbear: (i) Your distinction between jail and prison is arguing semantics and besides the point. The point is that a lot of people, maybe not in your jurisdiction, but in many cities around this country, get arrested and go to prison (or jail, or the penn, or the slammer, or the big house, or whatever you want to call it), on bullshit possession raps.

    (ii) And taking you at your word that most defendants in Florida charged with minor possession only get a fine and community service time, I still doubt that the sentencing is doled out evenly. In other words, I still think that the WHITE defendants will be more likely to get the fines and community service time of which you speak, whereas the brown and black defendants will more likely spend a little jail time for the same offense.

    (iii) And your description of the ill health effects you ascribe to heroin apply equally for alcohol and tobacco. People can make a mess of their bodies with any sort of drug. With heroin it’s usually the result of shooting up adulterated smack with a dirty needle in an alley because it’s illegal. If it were legal, the way it is in countries such as Holland, the ill health of which you speak would be a non-issue. If we as a society are truly that concerned about the potential health risks of consuming a particular drug, then tobacco and booze would have been illegal a long time ago. Oh wait a minute. Booze WAS illegal a long time ago. And look at how well that worked out. We actually amended the constitution over that stupid little issue. TWICE.

    The bottom line is Prohibition does not work. Never has. Never will. All it does is crowd the jails with non-violent offenders and further victimize the populations most likely to be already victims of other circumstances. IMHO.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    Oh, one more thing, Chillbear. Could you please maybe call me Beej, or BJ or Jonston or anything other than BJon? It sounds too much like Bichon–those foofey little white dogs. Thanks!

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/bjonston/ BJonston

    And another thing.

    The reason most people love to shop at Wal Mart is because the shit is so cheap. And why is it so cheap? Because 99% of the shit they sell at Wal Mart is made by kids and/or slaves in China. That’s why. I find it just a little ironic that the company that has become the very embodiment of ‘merican capitalism did it by selling cheap-ass imported shit made by underage, underpaid, overexploited, Chinese, Communist laborers.

    America. Fuck yeah!

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/chillbearlatrigue/ Chillbear Latrigue

    @Beej: My apologies on the name.

    (i) The only person who would say that the difference between a jail and prison is one of semantics is one that has never been to both to compare. Hardened criminals who are sentenced to a year or more go to prison. Jail is much more closely monitored and usually houses people awaiting trial, serving small sentences or just recently locked up. There are enormous differences in the two. In the prison system, there are different levels of facility. The level usually depends on the crime.

    (ii) If you are are a first time offender for cocaine or heroin, you are offered PTI. It has nothing to do with race, gender, etc. It is in the guidelines. What I do see is that white defendants will jump at a long probation in lieu of a short jail/prison sentence. Black defendants will often do the time to get it over with. I can best summarize the argument by approximately quoting someone who I knew during my narcotics days:

    “White people always think that they can’t stay out of shit until their probation is up. I know I’m going to fuck it up, so I take the short time.”

    I think he was partially joking, but he had just served a six month jail term instead of taking a 30 month probation. He knew that if he got arrested, he would have the new charge plus he would be in violation of his probation and begin serving the original sentence as well. He was proud of his decision since he was getting arrested again, but was at least free of the previous charges.

    (iii) You did qualify your sentence by saying “when taken responsibly and in moderation.” When does this happen? I’ve never seen it. In any event, you didn’t say that it had no adverse physical side effects that other substances don’t also have. I was responding to your statement.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/mama-penguino-2-2-2/ Mama Penguino

    Watch what you say about China! My kid was made in China!
    /levity

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/whyamihere/ WhyamIhere?

    @TRC: The short version is that I feel people should expect to take total responsibility for themselves. Regardless of how they started or what benefits they had I believe that society should provide a structure which people must work within to meet their own needs. I allow for very narrow exceptions for when the government should provide people with their basic needs. A longer answer will have to wait since I am going out.

    @BJ: I do work with Chillbear so I have a similar experience regarding drugs and drug users. I agree with you that alcohol can be abused and is a serious problem but its abuse and the abuse of prescription pills is not solved by their legality. Also, I have never met a heroin or crystal meth user that could be considered a casual or social user.

  • http://wordsmoker.com/help/members-3/forwardmotion/ forwardmotion

    My drug opinion: Marijuana should be legal. It’s silly to have it be against the law while cigarettes are legal. But neither are that great for your lungs. I stick to mai tais with a little plastic umbrella. But they aren’t great for you either.

    My health care opinion: People who fit a broad definition of “responsible” appear to be going under. In some cases they have health insurance, but are not covered enough. That, to me, is a problem. Insurance companies as they are currently structured are a problem. I don’t have many answers, but Pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps-when-you-have-cancer isn’t one of them.